To be honest, we all engage culture at some level. There isn’t a person in the world that has never engaged culture. We speak a certain language - that is culture. You eat certain foods - that is culture. You wear a certain type of shoes - that is culture. So we all engage culture in some aspect, but do we engage the culture when it counts for the Lord? You wouldn’t send your (hypothetical) Jr. High boy to the Philippines for a year long mission trip. At least I hope you wouldn’t. You also wouldn’t or at least shouldn’t keep that same boy, who is now out of college and studied on missions and the Philippine culture, from going there. He is now prepared and ready to go. Just as Rocky put it in his comment,
“While I might venture into a crack house to evangelize someone there (and of course not participate in the evil), I certainly wouldn't send my innocent pre-teen daughter to the same place. That same daughter though, after growing up and (maybe) becoming a, oh doctor say, I might encourage to do the same if so led by the Holy Spirit.”So we have to discern if engaging a certain part of culture is something the Spirit is leading us to do, and if it is, then we do it. Because each person is different on spiritual maturity, each of us is going to have different degrees of engagement to the culture. But if we don’t engage past the talk, food and shoes, we will be missing out on opportunities that God has put before us. Remember what the Apostle Paul told us in 1 Corinthians 9:
19 “For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.”
Paul’s goal was to save those who were lost, which should be our goal as well. If we don’t associate ourselves with the lost at some level, we will never be able to save them (of course, it is God who does the saving, not us, but I am using Paul’s words). Even though Paul is more mature than us in his faith, that doesn’t give us an excuse to not become something to someone so we can at least share the Gospel with them.
Let me know what you think about this. I would still like to see your insight, which I appreciate so much as I seek to minister to the youth in this generation as God would lead me.
I'm unclear what the point of this is. I've read your entry 3 times, and I still am not clear what your stance is.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say "engage in the culture," what do you mean?
Are you implying that Christians are living under a rock and are not associating with the lost? (paragraph 4) Is "associating with the lost" your understanding of engaging the culture?
I don't think that Paul is implying we are supposed to change who we are, how God made us, or what we do in order to tell the lost about Jesus. That is NOT what Paul did. He was obedient to the Holy Spirit, and he tailored his **telling of the Gospel** to the audience who would be hearing it. He used references and word pictures they would understand. He did not, as far as I know, *change himself* while spreading the Gospel.
Hillary, this might help you understand what I mean. This comes from Dictionary.com
ReplyDeleteEngage:
–verb (used without object)
1. to occupy oneself; become involved: to engage in business or politics
Therefore engage in culture would mean to occupy oneself with culture or to become involved in culture. i.e. wearing shoes that are "cool", going to movie theatres to watch movie, driving a car, eating certain foods, etc.
Do you notice I didn't say assimilate with the culture, because that is going to far. By the way:
Assimilate:
-verb (used without object)
1. to be or become absorbed.
2. to conform or adjust to the customs, attitudes, etc., of a group, nation, or the like: The new arrivals assimilated easily and quickly.
Now to clarify the associating stuff,
Associate
–verb (used without object)
1. to enter into union; unite.
2. to keep company, as a friend, companion, or ally: He was accused of associating with known criminals.
3. to join together as partners or colleagues.
This means that to associate oneself with the lost would mean to have relationships with them, get to know them, work with them, don't be scared of them if they have 20 holes in their face. (that is if you are around those kind of people) That is where the different degrees comes in, I don't expect a Grandma to associate with the skaters and the skate park, but if she did, that would be cool, and would probably make the news, especially if she can skate! I am not implying that Christians hide under rocks (not a good place to be, a little squashed under there), but that if we don't associate with the lost, how can we save them. That is the point of that sentence. You can't really associate yourself with the lost without engaging in some culture. There are hundreds of different kinds of cultures in our nation today. You are in one, and they are in another, when you have a relationship with them, you are engaging in some way or fashion.
And, you hit the nail on the head with the Paul thing, he didn't change himself, and I am by no means saying change yourself to fit in, I don't even think I used the word change in the article. But, you hit it dead on. Paul used part of their culture to help them understand better the Gospel.
Hope this can clarify a few things for you.
I feel like a dog chasing my tail. I read your response ("What Do I Think?") to "The Culture Question", got confused-so read "The Culture Question" again. Things seemed clear, so I came back and read "What Do I Think?" again. Confusion set in. You seemed very clear in the type of "culture" you were referring to in your initial blog. And this blog seems to discount that by referring to language, food, and shoes.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you could clarify what you mean.
Also, I have some concern with comparing our youth to Paul. Who Paul was, what Paul did, and where Paul went, were quite different from what our kids are confronted with. Not to mention, Paul's prior life experiences(meaning prior to following Christ), had already set him apart from most of our youth. I do agree that our goal should certainly be to save the lost. I do not want my kids to shirk away from that responsibility in Christ. If the opportunity presents itself to witness to someone, I want them Scripturally prepared to do so. But I am still not ready to say that they need to be relevant or to be a part of current culture in order to do that.
Also, if I-or my children-are seen as "rude or holier than thou" by someone for not participating in their [idea of] culture, that is not a fair judgement. No more than for me to judge that they are not worthy of my time. I think we might be missing the miracle of God's work in the hearts and spirits of the lost. We don't save, we merely plant seeds. God does the rest. In practical terms pertaining to life...when I plant a garden, I do not dig down into the dirt and lie amongst the seeds to help them to grow. I prepare the ground(study the Scriptures), I dig a furrow (open myself up to someone and open Christ up to them), I carefully plant or perhaps even casually toss in the seeds (showing them the love of Christ and the truth of salvation-which often times includes the bitter truth of hell)...and time and occasion permitting, I stay to water and watch it take hold...but sometimes, time and occasion does not permit and I have to let go and trust that God will grow that plant as He chooses.
I do look forward to learning EXACTLY what you mean by "engaging" in culture.
I see we were typing at the same time. You response to Hillary does clarify things! Thanks!
ReplyDeleteHa! Ha! Ryan!
ReplyDeleteI know what those words mean individually, but because they have been used as buzzwords for the emergent movement it's difficult to discern what the speaker *actually* means when he uses them. And because your post, as a whole, was confusing to me I needed some clarification as to what you specifically meant.
It would seem, by your definition, that Christians in America can hardly help but be engaged in the culture. (Unless they were living under rocks or in basements.) So you can't, then, be asking if believers *should be* engaged in the culture because, clearly, we are. We can't not be.
As far as associating with the lost, well, that, too, is difficult NOT to do. they're everywhere! We all know them. Most of us are related to at least a few. Because we don't live or work under rocks, we are surrounded by the lost every day. So asking whether or not we should associate with them isn't the right question. We already do. A better question is, perhaps, *how* are we communicating the Gospel with the lost around us? Are we willing to be fools for Christ, so to speak.
(Note: There is something to be said for avoiding definitions 1 "enter into union," and definition 3 "join together as partners and colleagues." Both of those place the believer close to disobeying the warning not to become unequally yoked with unbelievers. 2 Cor. 6:14 is not speaking solely about marriage.)
I think the big problem with modern American evangelicalism is that we have, in order to become - what? friendly? Less scary? Non-threatening? "Welcoming?"- to unbelievers, we have stopped teaching Biblical doctrine. We have stopped teaching the entirety of God's Word, choosing instead to preach moralism, or watered-down topical messages on Sunday mornings. Many churches are filled with people who know nothing but basic Bible stories because they have never been taught. Churches are where God's Word is to be taught and the saints are to be fed meat. Biblical preaching and Bible study equips believers to GO OUT and spread the Gospel to their families and neighbors and co-workers. But they cannot, unless they have been taight. That is what we need to be emphasizing to the youth, in my opinion.
And so long as our churches (and the professing Christians inside them) continue to model themselves after the world (Look! See! We're just like you!), we will cease to be salty to those around us.
Now, with all that being said, I'm still not sure of your opinion, Ryan. may I ask what you are encouraging the youth to do? How do you explain the dangers of "assimilating?" How do you define for them the boundaries between "engaging," "assimilating," and "associating?"
I have spent a great amount of time in thought about this subject. Not just since your blog, but since I became a parent of teenagers. You and I have even discussed this over the past few years. I don't want to overstep my boundaries or step on any toes here, but since reading your blogs, and your vague response, I feel a great deal of concern over the direction that you may be leading my children. I have a good friend who believes that children/youth/teens should not be segregated but should be raised and taught alongside adults. I admit to sharing that view. This is a tender time for their hearts, minds, and spirits. I think that the last thing they need in their lives, when they are so open to the influences of those around them, is to feed them to the [proverbial] wolves and let current culture, and other youth who are governed by current culture, be their main guidance. They should spend time learning more about the Bible and the direction that those with years of life experience in Christ can offer to them. My children ALWAYS come home more enriched and with a noticeable difference about themselves, when they have spent time with other godly youth and adults, and in time of prayer and biblical study. That difference prepares them to battle the forces of this damning culture, to be a beacon to the lost, to stand strong in what they believe, and to build their hearts in such a way that they can (and will) minister as God calls them to, when the time is right.
ReplyDeleteWe have a very diverse family. Not just in our immediate family, but in our distant cousins, aunts and uncles, etc. There are Mormons, Catholics, agnostics, and even a professed atheist or two. Our family has the opportunity to interact with, minister to, and shine the light of Christ into the lives of these people. The best example I can give here is my own husband. For over 15 years I prayed that he would come to Christ. He had no interest at all in doing so. He hated church, didn't like the people that he felt were self righteous hypocrites, and felt no need to join something that damned people to hell. I became a part of his "culture" after a few years of marriage. It seemed easier to live with him and keep peace. I didn't intentionally choose to live like that...it just sort of happened, little by little. Before I knew it, most of what I believed and held tightly to all those years prior to marrying him were so far in the distance that I felt I was still walking in Christ...I didn't see my own fall. Only through the true love and example of Christ and the removal of our lives from the "culture" that we were in, was Jack motivated to truly see the miracle of Christ's love. And to admit that he needed a Savior. My husband is a completely different man now. God did that...not us. But I truly believe that removing our family from the culture that we were living...television, movies, parties with the neighbors, the clothing we allowed our kids to wear, the coarse jesting that happens when you are outside of a godly situation...that was our culture...and it pulled us all away from God, and didn't set a right example for Jack.
We HAD to engage and associate with our husband and father...and we wanted to, as we loved him so much. But his culture slowly took us over. Only through leaving that culture and moving to a place where we could start rebuilding our family did God do His work in Jack, and truly in us, as well.
I am truly concerned about your stance here Ryan. I hope I have just not understood you correctly here. I look forward to your response.
Hillary, I like your comment, and I figured you knew what the words meant, but it was an easy way for me to tell you how I meant the words. So hopefully that cleared that up somewhat. Most believers are engaged in some level to the culture. My view is that if your goal is to reach a certain people group, i.e. youth, or lawyers, bankers, etc. That to do that where they will consider the Gospel that you offer to them, you will need to engage a little more. Which I think is needed more now, because of non-believer's stance on Christianity. A lot of non-believers think that Christians are stuck up and, like Brenda said Jack thought they were. He realized that those are stereotypes and shouldn't consider all Christians to be that way. Some people who are more intellectual like to talk about it more than have a relationship over it. So in that case you would spend time talking to them about the Gospel. Some people are not so intellectual and you will need to have a relationship of some sort with them, and like you said, not a unequally yoked marriage, that is clearly wrong from the Bible's view. Just like we always tell the girls, don't try to do missionary dating, dating to try to convert someone to Christianity, it usually doesn't work and it can end with you being married to a non-believer. I like how you put the associating part, Are we communicating the Gospel with those around us. This is where I take my stance on vocation and such. Lots of people think that if you want to reach a lot of lost people, you need to go into ministry. Well, lets take your husband for example, I am sure he works with a good number on non-believers. He has many opportunities to share the Gospel with his co-workers. He may even have more chances than many pastors. That is a different subject that is somewhat related, so I will stay off of that so I don't confuse more people.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you say about churches and American Evangelicalism. But my opinions on culture are with individual people not the church as a whole. What do we as believers do out in the world, not in the church. How do we reach the non-believers at the workplace, the grocery store, the line at the bank, while you are at the laundromat, etc. I think churches as a whole, should not get stuck on the seeker friendly model. That is corporate and what I am talking about is individual. (That is my fault for not making that clear, I apologize.)
The church and the individuals should not model themselves after the world, I am not sure exactly where you got that thought from, maybe it was my unclearness again. Engage doesn't mean model after, that is assimilate, and we should not assimilate the culture.
A good example of what I think engaging culture is the Christian music industry. The newer artists are using the music styles of the culture and they are using Christian lyrics, presenting the Gospel to that kind of music and people (not all people, different music tastes and such) like it. Non-Christian people even like it. So that is a method of engaging the culture that has been widely successful. Now, wearing Christian T-shirts to evangelize has not been successful, that somewhat flopped. So that is an example of engagement that didn't work so well.
Con't on next comment
Now, you and Brenda both make it sound like I am asking the youth to have this view. This article was not for the youth, but for Christians who think they are spiritually mature enough to engage the culture without the potential to assimilate. Like I said, we wouldn't send a Jr. High boy to the Philippines, and you can replace Philippines with inner city Chicago, Mexico City, etc. We all have different degrees, we need to be aware of that. Now when that kid is an adult (out of college is usually around 22) and they have a passion for the lost in certain areas (studying the Philippine culture, and again you can replace Philippines with whatever you want), they should go. I don't tell the youth to go into crack houses, and into brothels and into bars to see how many people they can witness too. We don't have a ongoing contest to see who can witness to more people in the most dangerous places. We also don't keep a record of people witnessing to neighbors as far as that goes. Assimilating is a word that the youth may not understand so much, so we would use different words as changing to, being absorbed by, adopting, etc. We don't encourage our youth here to do those things, I think that could be what Brenda maybe thinking, which is untrue. Defining engaging to the youth is fairly easy, you ask the kids what they like to do, sing, take pictures, draw, make movies, law, medicine, etc. Then I ask them, how can you do those things for the glory of God in the secular world? How can a artist glorify God in the secular world? (that is a question for you by the way). Associating is also fairly easy, you can associate with the non-christians of you school by talking with them, make them see that there is something different about you. Not in an emerging way that sacrifices your beliefs, but in a way that goes across racial lines, or black hair and white make up lines, etc.
ReplyDeleteWow, I just wrote a whole bunch. Hillary I hope that this helps you somewhat. Another reason my blog article may have been confusing is that I like to keep them short. I have a hard time reading longer articles, so I assume that other people do too. If I would go in depth about this all, only 3 people would read it, and my wife might not even read it, being there is an almost 1 year old reaking havoc on the house.
Brenda, I hear and I think I understand your concern and idea for not having youth groups and teach the youth along side adults. If that is the case, then why do your kids like Church Camp so well? It basically is a big youth group function, led by a few key adults, and the majority of the people there are youth. Why do we as a church have Pioneer Clubs, why do the great majority of Churches in the country have youth groups?
ReplyDeleteAlso, you have experienced first hand how bad it is and why the Bible says to not be unequally yoked. When you are it is easy to assimilate, that is why we as a youth group don't encourage the kids to assimilate at all, like I said in the comment to Hillary, when we encourage the youth to engage, it is to engage so they can glorify God, not to see what the culture of the world is like. I think your definition of engaging is a little different than mine. Engaging has many different degrees and levels, I think you assume that when I say engage, it means that we throw the youth into a bar or night club. Also, like I told Hillary, this view of mine is not for the youth, that is why I had the example of the Jr. High boy going to the Philippines. I would never dream of that, when they become adults they can venture that way (the graduated college student). To Engage and Associate does not mean the culture will take you over, that is Assimilating, that is something that the weaker brethren will do, it is something that we have to be spiritually mature to do. If a person is not mature enough to withstand the desires of the flesh, then they should not engage the culture, the danger of assimilating is to much. Again, that is why we don't let the teens watch certain movies or comedians on the mission trip. Not everyone is mature enough to handle that. When they are adults they can make there own decision on their own morals and maturity levels. I am somewhat confused where you got the idea that this article was for youth only. Hope that this helps you understand me better.
Hi Ryan! Thanks for expanding your thoughts a bit.
ReplyDeletePlease understand, I don't think Brenda or I were *accusing* you of anything. Myself, I am trying to understand you more specifically.
Your "What Do I Think" entry didn't really tell what you thought, which sort of left me confused. Your explanations in the comment section have been helpful.
Because this entry (and the one that sparked it) was about whether or not youth should "use," "go into," and "get drenched in" the things of the culture in order to reach the lost, Brenda is explaining that it *wasn't* when she was assimilating into Jack's culture that his heart softened. It was when she *stopped,* and began living in obedience to God.
Understanding the culture at large and being able to use the common vernacular is important. But being salty, being obedient, and NOT being like the world is what we are called to do.
I'm going to have to digest your last comments. Thanks for giving me a lot to think about! I'm enjoying the discussion! :)
Tell Angie I said "Hi!" And don't go piercing Asher's tongue just yet. ;)
(That was a joke.) :)
OK, what I'm typing is too long for here. I'll e-mail it to you. :)
ReplyDeleteRyan,
ReplyDeleteJust because my kids enjoy camp and other youth activities does not mean that I fully endorse them. I sometimes feel that because we homeschool, that church sponsored activities are the safest way to let my kids socialize with their peers. There are times I regret having felt that way, as I feel they are opened up to things that I don't want fostered in my home. And just because churches have youth groups, activities, Pioneer Clubs, AWANA, etc., that does not mean they are always appropriate activities or groups. Or even *needed*. What if those programs did not exist? Would our youth suffer as a result? What if we raised our children to expect less *for* themselves and more *of* themselves. The JOY model-Jesus, others, yourself. What if we made it more about God and less about fun, music, food, socialization, who's dating who, etc.? I am not saying that you are doing it wrong, Ryan. I am just saying that some people (me included) have a different idea for their youth and the way they are raising them.
I, like Hillary, am enjoying the discussion. I don't want you to think that because I don't agree with you that I don't appreciate where you are coming from. You have an incredibly tough job in being a youth minister. I always keep you and Angie in prayer. I just felt I needed to weigh in about your original blog, as I did see it as being asked in a way that made me think it had to do with our youth. You are our youth pastor, you referred to speakers from youth Bible camp...I guess it was an assumption I should not have made. I apologize, Ryan!
You readily point out in our Wed. night class that you are only parenting an 11 month old-soon to be 1 year old! That is very different, at most levels, than parenting teenagers. I am certain that you want to take precautions to protect Asher from things that can hurt him...caustic substances, electricity, falls, sharp objects. Those can all be deadly if used inappropriately. And most likely, a 1 year old would use them inappropriately. I see the world in much the same way. Some kids seem to know what is bad and what is dangerous and steer clear of it. Some kids want to test the waters, and they get into deep water before they know what is happening. And some, dive head-long into very treacherous waters, perhaps even hitting their head on a rock and disabling themselves-sometimes even killing themselves. It is my job, as a parent, to lock those things away-just as you do for Asher-until my children are at a point (adulthood) where they have the maturity to handle it. If I weren't a Christian mother, if I was just removing life from them and not preparing them (Biblically) to battle it all in a godly way and then chucking them out the door at age 18, I'd say it is likely foolish to "shelter" them. But I don't see it as sheltering my kids, I see it as the very best way to prepare them for the battle ahead. To arm them with a worldview that cannot be shaken by liberal professors, non-Christian friends, etc...that is my job-and I take it seriously.
I appreciate you explaining things. I just see things differently. Life experiences will do that...cause you to look at things in a different light.
I thought I would post more comments that may or may not be related.
ReplyDeleteWestern culture has radically changed in the past twenty years. The number of people that believe in absolutes has dwindled. The battle between good and evil continues on, but if you listen to society the good side is on its way to defeat. This has an effect on how we see the culture. Television news is a business and newscasts are rewarded monetarily by higher ratings. Bad news brings higher ratings. We sometimes forget about the good things in our culture. We must also remember that our personal opinions do not represent good. There are some types of music that I don’t prefer. That doesn’t necessarily mean that God and I have the same preferences. When we sing hymns at church I always look at the bottom of the page to look at the date it was written. I have a tendency to think these hymns have been around forever. I sometimes think that these hymns are more pleasing to God than some other current music. By looking at the date written, it makes me think back to when it was written (not that long ago) and I’m sure there were people at that time thinking the same thing that I’m thinking now- only that the hymn that we are now singing is the less pleasing to God.
I consider looking at culture situation as a battle. A war is made up of a series of battles. We don’t have to worry about the overall “war” but do consider the battles that we are presented with. (The war is already won- I just can’t put the date on it.) These battles between good and evil are not always as clear as we would like them to be. On a smaller scale they can be individual battles inside of a single human being. The battle isn’t with flesh and blood but inside, a battle for the soul of a person. It used to be that movies would have a good guy and a bad guy- the good guy won. Many movies today don’t make it that clear. Even when you do know the good guys, they sometimes use suspect ways to win the battle. We need not use suspect ways to win the battle.
In dealing with the culture, we need to first and foremost be prepared for the battle ahead. The one thing that has made the US a dominate country on earth is its military force. The US has had a strong military force because of the amount of training that has been put into it. Training for anything is valuable. We also need to be trained for the struggle set before us to win followers for Christ. I am prepared for many situations but at the same time realize that there are some situations that I need to avoid. I have no business going into a bar to try to win souls. Granted, I would fit into that situation (because of my past) but would not be comfortable enough because I know I could be taken in by that life style. The key word here is “could”. I think Paul understood this concept. He knew he was a sinner. He knew he was weak and could be tempted to sin once again. When we go into these situations we must remember that we are sinners and aren’t above sinning. If only the people we are trying to reach understood that we don’t see ourselves above them. All have sinned……
If they only knew what we know